Disbelief in the Creator is just Belief in the Death.

Originally Posted by Penguin

Really? I find that hard to believe, because we all necessarily use this assumption. For instance, when I go to work, I take my usual route because the fact that my office has been in the same place for years and was there yesterday implies that it's unlikely that it was picked up and moved in the middle of the night.

Do you not make these sorts of assumptions? Do you start every day with no preconceptions or assumptions based on your memories?


No, actually, it doesn't imply any of that. Your belief only implies that you think "that existence of the universe and the living organisms is the consequence of great knowledge, intentional planning and calculated work for certain purpose." Whether this is actually true is a whole other matter. Your beliefs do not determine reality.

And they don't give you any certainty in this matter, either. So you believe that God exists and has some divine plan... well, how do you know that it doesn't serve his divine plan to utterly eradicate you tomorrow, body and soul?


This doesn't answer the question.

Can you answer your own questions? If your belief in God doesn't provide you with an answer, then why would my disbelief in God be an issue here?


Your interpretation of my refusal to answer as evidence of anything is evidence of your lack of command of basic logic. You should strongly consider the possibility that your OP was fundamentally flawed, and that you haven't recognized this fact so far is because you don't have the tools to do it, not because it's actually valid.

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S1:
Not true. I don't think that the past and present can provide necessary basis for belief in the future existence of self and of the universe.

Originally Posted by Penguin

Really? I find that hard to believe, because we all necessarily use this assumption. For instance, when I go to work, I take my usual route because the fact that my office has been in the same place for years and was there yesterday implies that it's unlikely that it was picked up and moved in the middle of the night.

Do you not make these sorts of assumptions? Do you start every day with no preconceptions or assumptions based on your memories?

S1:
If so, why did you fail to answer my questions?

S1:
Do you believe in the future existence of yourself and of the universe, and for what extent of time?

S2:
What is the evidence for future existence of yourself and of the universe, and for what extent of time?

Originally Posted by saeedalyousuf
Belief in the creator means that existence of the universe and the living organisms is the consequence of great knowledge, intentional planning and calculated work for certain purpose. Therefore belief in the creator provides credible basis for belief in the future existence.

Originally Posted by Penguin

No, actually, it doesn't imply any of that. Your belief only implies that you think "that existence of the universe and the living organisms is the consequence of great knowledge, intentional planning and calculated work for certain purpose." Whether this is actually true is a whole other matter. Your beliefs do not determine reality.

And they don't give you any certainty in this matter, either. So you believe that God exists and has some divine plan... well, how do you know that it doesn't serve his divine plan to utterly eradicate you tomorrow, body and soul?

S2:
Since every thing you got, even the ability to think, write and post this message, is from the creator, how then can you trust anything else more than your only creator and benefacor?

S3:
Is it possible to believe in ANYTHING, without the belief in the creator of the universe and how?

Saeed

Originally Posted by zensunni

Yes


Don't know


The evidence is previous existence.

S1:
You are ignoring the fact that "previous existence" was preceded by non-existence. Therefore, according to your logic, non-existence is the evidence for existence.

Saeed

Originally Posted by saeedalyousuf

S1:
If so, why did you fail to answer my questions?

Because I'm not interested in playing your game. I don't think your questions are relevant to your conclusion.

Originally Posted by saeedalyousuf

S2:
Since every thing you got, even the ability to think, write and post this message, is from the creator, how then can you trust anything else more than your only creator and benefacor?

Assumes facts not in evidence. How do you know you have an "only creator and benefactor"?

And even if you assume that you do have a creator, what makes you think you can trust him/her/it/them?

Originally Posted by saeedalyousuf

S3:
Is it possible to believe in ANYTHING, without the belief in the creator of the universe and how?

What bearing does belief in the creator of the universe have on the matter? If you really do think that you can't believe in anything without God, then how does God allow you to believe anything more?

Originally Posted by zensunni

Simply saying something is a fact does not make it so. There's no proof that "previous existence" was preceded by non-existence. For all anyone knows, previous existence could be infinite. It could also be a loop.

S:
My claim is supported by the available scientific evidence:

Age of the universe

The estimated age of the universe is 13.75 ± 0.17 billion years,[1] the time since the Big Bang. The uncertainty range has been obtained by the agreement of a number of scientific research projects. These projects included background radiation measurements and more ways to measure the expansion of the universe. Background radiation measurements give the cooling time of the universe since the Big Bang. Expansion of the universe measurements give accurate data to calculate the age of the universe.

Age of the universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your evidence for the eternity of the universe?

Saeed

Originally Posted by Penguin

Because I'm not interested in playing your game. I don't think your questions are relevant to your conclusion.

S1:
Not true. Your failure to answer my questions:

S1:
Do you believe in the future existence of yourself and of the universe, and for what extent of time?

S2:
What is the evidence for future existence of yourself and of the universe, and for what extent of time?

It means that disbelief is not qualified to provide credible belief in the future existence of self and of the universe and therefore is incompatible with the normal human life.

Assumes facts not in evidence. How do you know you have an "only creator and benefactor"?

S2:
The standing challenge of the Qur’an since about fourteen hundred years:
Surah Al-Israa Ruku 10 Surah 17

88 Say: Verily, though mankind and the Jinn should assemble to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof though they were helpers one of another.

M. Pickthall Quran Translation

And even if you assume that you do have a creator, what makes you think you can trust him/her/it/them?

S3:
Since you are absolutely dependent upon him for your life and existence, therefore, he also deserves your absolute trust (i.e., he is entitled to your trust more than you can even trust yourself).

What bearing does belief in the creator of the universe have on the matter? If you really do think that you can't believe in anything without God, then how does God allow you to believe anything more?

S4:
The creator has created you for very good reason and not just in vain.

Saeed

Originally Posted by saeedalyousuf

S1:
Not true. Your failure to answer my questions:
It means that disbelief is not qualified to provide credible belief in the future existence of self and of the universe and therefore is incompatible with the normal human life.

Nope. Don't put words into my mouth. I don't want to answer those questions because I think they're foolish and irrelevant.

Originally Posted by saeedalyousuf

S2:
The standing challenge of the Qur’an since about fourteen hundred years:
Surah Al-Israa Ruku 10 Surah 17

The passage is vague, meaningless and irrelevant. Again: how do you know you have an "only creator and benefactor"?

Originally Posted by saeedalyousuf

S3:
Since you are absolutely dependent upon him for your life and existence, therefore, he also deserves your absolute trust (i.e., he is entitled to your trust more than you can even trust yourself).

Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises. Even if your god was the one and only creator of the universe, this wouldn't mean that he's reliable. What you're doing is like responding to the question "will this rope hold your weight?" with "well, it's the only rope we have." It doesn't actually answer the question.

Originally Posted by saeedalyousuf

S4:
The creator has created you for very good reason and not just in vain.

So? Even if this were true, how would it be relevant?

Originally Posted by zensunni

Did you go to a library? Did you educate yourself on epistemology & critical thinking? Didn't think so...



The Big Bang Theory does not state that nothing existed before the big bang. If so, I'd like to see where you found that.

S1:
What did exist of the universe fifteen billion years back?

I don't need to give evidence because I never made the claim. I only listed could-be scenarios. See, in the scientific world, if there is no evidence, you say "I don't know". You don't arbitrarily assume things to be true.

S2:
You are just contradicting yourself:

S2:
What is the evidence for future existence of yourself and of the universe, and for what extent of time?

The evidence is previous existence. It's an assumption based on probabilities. If you roll a dice 3000 times and it lands on two, what would you assume is going to happen the next time you roll the dice? Sure, you have no absolute proof of such outcome, but absolute proof doesn't exist in anything other than human constructs like math and digital information.

Disbelief in the Creator is just Belief in the Death.

Saeed